Misc. Technical Ramblings and Nostalgia - share yours here

zepherusbane
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Misc. Technical Ramblings and Nostalgia - share yours here Jan 23, 2019 14:12:03 GMT -5 khj likes this

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Post by zepherusbane on Jan 23, 2019 14:12:03 GMT -5

I was reading a thread troubleshooting some scanner issues and khj had mentioned something about an Apple II+. That got me thinking about all the various technology around these days and also brought back some nostalgia for old tech.

Since my comments around it didn't really fit there I thought I would start a new thread in the "off topic" area to discuss if anyone else was interested in my ramblings.

Please feel free to add all your own memories and thoughts to this thread!!!!

Jan 23, 2019 11:58:58 GMT -5 khj said:

Ah, still remember connecting my Apple II+ to my black & white TV...

Ah yes, the memories. I still have an apple IIe sitting next to my desk. For some reason, I can't bear to get rid of it even though it finally stopped working.

Here's a picture of it:

Today and for the last 6 years or so I've been using apple macbook pro's as my main work machine. I wouldn't say it's any better at interfacing with things than anything else these days. I have Windows 10 on the mac in a VM too since I still need some Windows-related things too (such as Microsoft Visio which doesn't have a mac version).

Currently, my personal machine is a laptop that defaults to booting Ubuntu Linux, but also has Windows 10 installed. It kind of depends on my mood which one I'll use, but lately I've been spending more time in Windows. I also have more than a dozen other flavors of linux or specialty linux distros on VM's.

Here are the VM's:

Last Edit: Jan 23, 2019 14:12:49 GMT -5 by zepherusbane

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Misc. Technical Ramblings and Nostalgia - share yours here Jan 23, 2019 14:21:14 GMT -5 zepherusbane likes this

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Post by khj on Jan 23, 2019 14:21:14 GMT -5

Back in the early 1980s, I bought a 80-column card in Asia so I could upgrade my Apple II+ from 40-columns to 80-columns to make it a little more like the high-tech Apple IIe you showed! lol

The cards were so much cheaper in Asia, but it would be hit or miss (sorry, no refunds or warranties).

Ugh, I remember those slide-out panels at top. I was forever afraid that one day the weight of the TV (remember, they aren't the lightweight LCD/LED monitors of today) would cause the cover to cave in and smash the motherboard+cards.

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Misc. Technical Ramblings and Nostalgia - share yours here Jan 23, 2019 14:39:35 GMT -5 khj likes this

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Post by zepherusbane on Jan 23, 2019 14:39:35 GMT -5

Jan 23, 2019 14:21:14 GMT -5 khj said:

Back in the early 1980s, I bought a 80-column card in Asia so I could upgrade my Apple II+ from 40-columns to 80-columns to make it a little more like the high-tech Apple IIe you showed! lol

The cards were so much cheaper in Asia, but it would be hit or miss (sorry, no refunds or warranties).

Ugh, I remember those slide-out panels at top. I was forever afraid that one day the weight of the TV (remember, they aren't the lightweight LCD/LED monitors of today) would cause the cover to cave in and smash the motherboard+cards.

Nice upgrade! My school had several Apple II+ machines, and right after the IIe was available they brought in some of those too. I remember writing my first programs on those machines and I still have old 5.25 floppy disks that I was using during that time period.

When my Apple IIe still worked I would start it up every so often to play old games from back then for nostalgia. I joined the AV club in school primarily because you could sign out one of these machines and take it home over the weekend if you were part of that club. I'm not sure how the Audio Visual club got tied to the computers initially, but they didn't have a separate computer club.

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Misc. Technical Ramblings and Nostalgia - share yours here Jan 23, 2019 14:58:50 GMT -5 zepherusbane likes this

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Post by stampie78 on Jan 23, 2019 14:58:50 GMT -5

Jan 23, 2019 14:39:35 GMT -5 zepherusbane said:

Jan 23, 2019 14:21:14 GMT -5 khj said:

Back in the early 1980s, I bought a 80-column card in Asia so I could upgrade my Apple II+ from 40-columns to 80-columns to make it a little more like the high-tech Apple IIe you showed! lol

The cards were so much cheaper in Asia, but it would be hit or miss (sorry, no refunds or warranties).

Ugh, I remember those slide-out panels at top. I was forever afraid that one day the weight of the TV (remember, they aren't the lightweight LCD/LED monitors of today) would cause the cover to cave in and smash the motherboard+cards.

Nice upgrade! My school had several Apple II+ machines, and right after the IIe was available they brought in some of those too. I remember writing my first programs on those machines and I still have old 5.25 floppy disks that I was using during that time period.

When my Apple IIe still worked I would start it up every so often to play old games from back then for nostalgia. I joined the AV club in school primarily because you could sign out one of these machines and take it home over the weekend if you were part of that club. I'm not sure how the Audio Visual club got tied to the computers initially, but they didn't have a separate computer club.

I have been reading with some interest all your postings about scanning and the bars problem. I can't for the life of me see any bars on your pics. They look just fine. But maybe that's just me. If you're talking about the sharp line about half way up the stamp, is it not just the edge of the pocket on the stock page? And as for all the apple talk, I had a very nice cortland apple last night for a snack. I also like the mackintosh apples when I can find them. Very juicy and tasty. No need to comment on this, I'm just wasting time till supper. Happy stamping and Appleing.

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Misc. Technical Ramblings and Nostalgia - share yours here Jan 23, 2019 15:02:27 GMT -5 zepherusbane likes this

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Post by khj on Jan 23, 2019 15:02:27 GMT -5

Alas, I sold my Apple II+ for something like $100-$200 in the early 1990s to help pay for my 3rd Mac. I still remember the look on that guy's face -- he was so happy to get the Apple II+ to replace the one for his business that had died.

I think he was one of those who still used a typewriter... Alas, I have already donated away my old manual typewriter and my electric Smith-Corona. The things I do to make more space for ~~stamps~~ wife and kids.

Last Edit: Jan 23, 2019 15:13:37 GMT -5 by khj

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Misc. Technical Ramblings and Nostalgia - share yours here Jan 23, 2019 15:05:43 GMT -5 JanetC, zepherusbane, and 2 more like this

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Post by toyempire on Jan 23, 2019 15:05:43 GMT -5

My first ever CPU was a Commodore 128 which I mostly purchased to play games (as I recall many of the games I had where on cassette tapes!). I then upgraded to an Amiga 500 again mostly to play games on (this would have been around 1987 -88). I remember ordering an update chip and then paying a guy in one of the avionics units to install it for me as it required disassemblely, motherboard removal and soldering (was in the Air Force at the time). Still remember how awesome I thought those early D&D "gold box" Amiga 500 games where. In the mid 1990's I sold all those old Amiga games to a gentlemen in Japan for what I thought was stupid money at the time.

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Misc. Technical Ramblings and Nostalgia - share yours here Jan 23, 2019 15:10:52 GMT -5 zepherusbane likes this

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Post by khj on Jan 23, 2019 15:10:52 GMT -5

Jan 23, 2019 14:58:50 GMT -5 stampie78 said:

I have been reading with some interest all your postings about scanning and the bars problem. I can't for the life of me see any bars on your pics. They look just fine. But maybe that's just me. If you're talking about the sharp line about half way up the stamp, is it not just the edge of the pocket on the stock page? And as for all the apple talk, I had a very nice cortland apple last night for a snack. I also like the mackintosh apples when I can find them. Very juicy and tasty. No need to comment on this, I'm just wasting time till supper. Happy stamping and Appleing.

stampie78, go back to the original thread and see the 2nd to the last post in page 1. I posted a mark-up of youpiao's pic showing which bands he was referring to.

Need help with scans with bands (marked picture)

zepherusbane Stamp Bears Posting Guru Posts: 2,990 Location (Country): United States	Misc. Technical Ramblings and Nostalgia - share yours here Jan 23, 2019 15:15:24 GMT -5 kacyds, JanetC, and 2 more like this Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Back to Top Post by zepherusbane on Jan 23, 2019 15:15:24 GMT -5 stampie78 , at the risk of accidentally getting back on topic, here are some of my favorite Apples:
	Last Edit: Jan 23, 2019 15:18:35 GMT -5 by zepherusbane Worldwide collector of stamps and covers! I gave up on limiting to only certain countries.

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Misc. Technical Ramblings and Nostalgia - share yours here Jan 23, 2019 15:25:56 GMT -5 zepherusbane likes this

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Post by khj on Jan 23, 2019 15:25:56 GMT -5

Remember the Apple II clones? My favorite names were the Orange and the Medfly. There was also the Peach, the Mango, and the Pineapple, but I didn't hear about those until well afterwards. The more successful clones all had more business-like names -- I almost got the Franklin Ace.

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Misc. Technical Ramblings and Nostalgia - share yours here Jan 23, 2019 15:35:39 GMT -5 kacyds, JanetC, and 1 more like this

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Post by zepherusbane on Jan 23, 2019 15:35:39 GMT -5

Jan 23, 2019 15:05:43 GMT -5 toyempire said:

My first ever CPU was a Commodore 128 which I mostly purchased to play games (as I recall many of the games I had where on cassette tapes!). I then upgraded to an Amiga 500 again mostly to play games on (this would have been around 1987 -88). I remember ordering an update chip and then paying a guy in one of the avionics units to install it for me as it required disassemblely, motherboard removal and soldering (was in the Air Force at the time). Still remember how awesome I thought those early D&D "gold box" Amiga 500 games where. In the mid 1990's I sold all those old Amiga games to a gentlemen in Japan for what I thought was stupid money at the time.

It's funny that you mention Commodore, my very first computer that I actually owned instead of borrowing/sharing was a Commodore Vic20. It had a massive 2.5k of memory and a cassette tape player to save programs/load programs. I remember how you would have to type in from scratch programs that you wanted to run and to save you literally might have to "record" to a cassette tape for 10 minutes to save 500 lines of basic code. I remember that it also had cartriges for games like most game consoles did at the time too.

I don't even know whatever happened to the Vic20, but I wish I still had it. It wasn't long after I had got it that I discovered IBM machines for the first time as my father got one of the first IBM PC's not long after and I spent more time on that than he did.

Here is a pic of one:

Last Edit: Jan 23, 2019 15:36:58 GMT -5 by zepherusbane

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Misc. Technical Ramblings and Nostalgia - share yours here Jan 23, 2019 15:37:49 GMT -5

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Post by zepherusbane on Jan 23, 2019 15:37:49 GMT -5

Jan 23, 2019 15:25:56 GMT -5 khj said:

Remember the Apple II clones? My favorite names were the Orange and the Medfly. There was also the Peach, the Mango, and the Pineapple, but I didn't hear about those until well afterwards. The more successful clones all had more business-like names -- I almost got the Franklin Ace.

I never did use any of the clones, strangely enough. I do remember hearing about them though.

Worldwide collector of stamps and covers! I gave up on limiting to only certain countries.

angore Master Stamp Bear Posts: 1,611	Misc. Technical Ramblings and Nostalgia - share yours here Jan 23, 2019 17:31:13 GMT -5 zepherusbane and khj like this Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Back to Top Post by angore on Jan 23, 2019 17:31:13 GMT -5 I remember punch cards...oh the fun, running jobs late at night to avoid the crowds, etc.
	Last Edit: Jan 23, 2019 17:32:02 GMT -5 by angore

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Misc. Technical Ramblings and Nostalgia - share yours here Jan 23, 2019 18:04:39 GMT -5 zepherusbane and khj like this

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Post by tomd on Jan 23, 2019 18:04:39 GMT -5

My first Mac had OS 9 & OS 10 on it because 10 was just coming out.
And it was the last one before the flat screen.
I bough it in 2000 and it died due to being out dated in 2006.

But my first computer was when I got out of the Navy and it was a "ADAM"
any one remember that one

Then the Tandy 1000SX

Then a put together PC

I now have a Mac 27 inch with OS 10.13.6, High Sierra, which in now as my first MAC no longer update-able.

Last Edit: Jan 23, 2019 18:08:04 GMT -5 by tomd

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Misc. Technical Ramblings and Nostalgia - share yours here Jan 23, 2019 18:34:21 GMT -5 zepherusbane likes this

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Post by khj on Jan 23, 2019 18:34:21 GMT -5

Jan 23, 2019 17:31:13 GMT -5 angore said:

I remember punch cards...oh the fun, running jobs late at night to avoid the crowds, etc.

Ahh, the punchcards. Back when we knew what chad was, before most people had ever heard of the word!

Loved to watch and hear the sound of the reader grabbing and feeding the cards so you could run the job on the "Dinosaur". And the snickering (not outward, of course) from the string of expletives that followed when somebody dropped a box of cards of the job they were going to run.

When the DEC VAX series minicomputers came out, I was so amazed -- no more "dinosaurs". But the big jobs we always still ran on the IBMs. In the those days, it was still no contest. Like a Cray compared to a laptop.

Last Edit: Jan 23, 2019 18:37:08 GMT -5 by khj

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Misc. Technical Ramblings and Nostalgia - share yours here Jan 23, 2019 21:17:46 GMT -5 tomd, zepherusbane, and 1 more like this

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Post by mourningdoves on Jan 23, 2019 21:17:46 GMT -5

My first computer was a Goldstar 286 running DOS 3.3. I got a book called Running MS-DOS, I think; it wasn't exactly what I needed, but it was very well-written and I got through all of it (except the two long chapters about Edlin - anybody here remember Edlin??) and got so that I could move files around and list directories.

Eventually, a guy I knew sent me a pack of discs with a bootlegged WordPerfect 5.1, and got on the phone with me and told me how to install it. He also told me how to set some buffers and whatnot so that I'd get it to run really well. I believe that his motive was that he was a writer for a zine I published, and he wanted me to get computerized so that the zine would look better.

WordPerfect sat there for a while, mystifying me, but for a while when I was unemployed, I just sat there for a few hours a day and learned WordPerfect. It sounds funny to say it now, but it was actually one of the more profound experiences I've ever had. I could erase all my mistakes without leaving a trace and without going through reams of white-out! I could use 30 different typefaces in every paper I ever wrote! I could type resumes and term papers for my friends and they'd give me beer! It actually made me feel like I wasn't alone.

I even bought a legit copy to support the WordPerfect Corporation, which was the right thing to do back then when it was just a bunch of guys losing their shirts because they had an 800 number that anybody could call and ask questions. And I basically respect intellectual property, so when I figured out what was up with all these floppy discs with Magic Marker writing on them, I replaced every bootleg disc I had if I was actually using the program that was on it. Eventually I got a job as a WordPerfect guy in a mental health clinic (which was a wonderful experience until, well, management) and got certified as a WordPerfect Certified Expert. It never did me any good, but I think I still have the paper.

I went through a series of life changes in the mid-1990s and it wasn't until I emerged back into the work force as a free agent that I learned Microsoft Word had taken over the world and eaten everybody's brain. I still think that Word 97 was among the most awful pieces of software ever released. But I guess I was wrong. One thing Microsoft did right was if you became one of their Certified Experts, they'd find ways for you to get work and be an evangelist. WordPerfect didn't.

Jan 23, 2019 15:37:49 GMT -5 zepherusbane said:

Jan 23, 2019 15:25:56 GMT -5 khj said:

Remember the Apple II clones?

A friend of mine bought a Franklin at a flea market, probably for $20 because that was the kind of guy he was, and asked me to come over and see if I could get it to do anything. I figured out how to turn it on, but it sat there with a blinking cursor on the screen, or maybe nothing at all. I could tell it was on because the fan was running. My friend didn't get any discs with it, and I didn't figure out until much later that the Franklin probably needed a disc or 2 to boot from, so at the time I was stumped.

Jan 23, 2019 17:31:13 GMT -5 angore said:

I remember punch cards...oh the fun, running jobs late at night to avoid the crowds, etc.

A long time ago, I went to school and got an education. Yeah, I was a student, and I could converse intelligently about all sorts of literary subjects and make a complete ass out of myself. I learned about punch cards because the administration building had a mainframe in a climate-controlled room and they churned out punch cards like there was no tomorrow. You couldn't walk by the place without slipping on 1,000,000 punch cards. I think some people picked them up and used them for other purposes when they ran out of Zigzags.

I briefly worked for a small university in New Jersey that had a mainframe that ran a network on VAX/VMS, I think it was. I'm pretty sure it was DEC machines. I could access a VAX/VMS version of WordPerfect on it, but whenever I tried to do anything on it, I failed, because none of my keystrokes worked. That WordPerfect had all different keystrokes. (I think it was WordPerfect 3.0 for VAX/VMS. I never met anybody who had ever seen WordPerfect 3.0 for DOS or CP/M, if there even was such a thing.) It was frustrating, and by then I had a pretty big ego about being a WordPerfect guy, so I felt like a dope. But I don't think anybody in my department ever got anything to print off that terminal, or if they did it came out of a printer 2 buildings away. One woman there was pretty good at working some database that was on there, but I never knew what the database was for or who used it.

Last Edit: Jan 23, 2019 21:19:40 GMT -5 by mourningdoves

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Misc. Technical Ramblings and Nostalgia - share yours here Jan 23, 2019 21:27:33 GMT -5 khj likes this

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Post by zepherusbane on Jan 23, 2019 21:27:33 GMT -5

Jan 23, 2019 15:05:43 GMT -5 toyempire said:

My first ever CPU was a Commodore 128 which I mostly purchased to play games (as I recall many of the games I had where on cassette tapes!). I then upgraded to an Amiga 500 again mostly to play games on (this would have been around 1987 -88). I remember ordering an update chip and then paying a guy in one of the avionics units to install it for me as it required disassemblely, motherboard removal and soldering (was in the Air Force at the time). Still remember how awesome I thought those early D&D "gold box" Amiga 500 games where. In the mid 1990's I sold all those old Amiga games to a gentlemen in Japan for what I thought was stupid money at the time.

I always heard really good things about amiga back in those days, but I never used one.

As far as those D&D games, I was very much into playing the pen and paper version of that game back in the 80's, but never tried any of the video game versions until much later with Baldur's Gate, but couldn't really get into it without the human to human factor.

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Misc. Technical Ramblings and Nostalgia - share yours here Jan 23, 2019 21:47:52 GMT -5 zepherusbane likes this

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Post by khj on Jan 23, 2019 21:47:52 GMT -5

Jan 23, 2019 21:17:46 GMT -5 mourningdoves said:

anybody here remember Edlin?

I remember that!!! When the full screen editor EMACS got ported to our DEC/VAX, I was so relieved! Writing 10-20 page papers for a history final is totally ugh using Edlin. There used to be another ancient line editor called ".ed". One of my friends was named Edward, and we called him .Ed for short! Any link between the line editor and him both being difficult to work with are purely coincidental!

Jan 23, 2019 21:17:46 GMT -5 mourningdoves said:

I didn't figure out until much later that the Franklin probably needed a disc or 2 to boot from, so at the time I was stumped.

Yup. Back then, Apple DOS was not in the ROM (only the boot up and disk drive code). You had to the put the Apple DOS System disk (5¼" floppy) in first. It would then load DOS into RAM.

In the early days, when you got a memory upgrade to 64KB (yes, that's right, 64KB not MB), you could patch the start-up to shift the ROM code into the higher memory addresses, so you could run memory access intensive program in the quicker access low memory addresses.

Funny thinking about what used to think was important... now we just go out and do things the youpiao way and buy GB's of memory!

Too bad Philatarium is tied down. I think he'd enjoy this thread!

Last Edit: Jan 23, 2019 21:51:15 GMT -5 by khj

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Misc. Technical Ramblings and Nostalgia - share yours here Jan 23, 2019 22:17:28 GMT -5 zepherusbane and khj like this

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Post by mourningdoves on Jan 23, 2019 22:17:28 GMT -5

Jan 23, 2019 21:47:52 GMT -5 khj said:

I remember that!!! When the full screen editor EMACS got ported to our DEC/VAX, I was so relieved!

I used emacs for several years at my last job, and I loved it. Oddly, when I left that job and moved back to Windows from Linux, I installed emacs for Windows, but even though it was a pretty good port and I could move over my dot.emacs file and my word lists & recorded macros, I soon lost interest, and I hardly think of it any more. And it was like my life for years!

Part of my disenchantment is that I turned emacs into a LaTeX editor, with AucTeX and some huge LaTeX compiler, and tried to typeset a manuscript that has been lying around here for years. After a while, I grew to hate LaTeX. I found a converter that turned the shards of the manuscript into an absolutely deranged Word 97-2003 document, and I couldn't have been happier. I probably blocked emacs out of my mind because of that association, which is a shame, but Notepad++ is pretty darn good for the somewhat limited amount of plain-text editing I need to do these days.

Jan 23, 2019 21:47:52 GMT -5 khj said:

Writing 10-20 page papers for a history final is totally ugh using Edlin.

Merciful heavens! What, your typewriter was broken? Ran out of fountain pen cartridges? I absolutely cannot comprehend writing a one-page paper in Edlin. BTW, what was the topic? History classes were easily the high point of the dismal era of my high school life, but the college courses I took were pretty bland. Later in life, I grew to love history, and that's most of what I read now.

Last Edit: Jan 23, 2019 22:22:02 GMT -5 by mourningdoves

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Misc. Technical Ramblings and Nostalgia - share yours here Jan 23, 2019 22:21:28 GMT -5 alyn, zepherusbane, and 1 more like this

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Post by mourningdoves on Jan 23, 2019 22:21:28 GMT -5

Jan 23, 2019 14:12:03 GMT -5 zepherusbane said:

Ah yes, the memories. I still have an apple IIe sitting next to my desk. For some reason, I can't bear to get rid of it even though it finally stopped working.

I had old computers - the first one I ever installed Linux on, and the second one too - and an Epson 9-pin dot matrix printer that I had extreme attachments to, and it took me forever to finally send them off. The Epson probably still even worked, but I hadn't used it in probably 15 years and I couldn't get ribbons for it any more. I still wish I'd sent it to the Smithsonian instead.

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Misc. Technical Ramblings and Nostalgia - share yours here Jan 23, 2019 22:51:31 GMT -5 zepherusbane likes this

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Post by khj on Jan 23, 2019 22:51:31 GMT -5

Jan 23, 2019 22:17:28 GMT -5 mourningdoves said:

Merciful heavens! What, your typewriter was broken? Ran out of fountain pen cartridges? I absolutely cannot comprehend writing a one-page paper in Edlin. BTW, what was the topic? History classes were easily the high point of the dismal era of my high school life, but the college courses I took were pretty bland. Later in life, I grew to love history, and that's most of what I read now.

I loved my Smith-Corona typewriter, but I wanted to have a digital copy of my paper. So I handwrote my papers and typed it in using Edlin. Afterwards, with EMACS, I would type it in directly without handwriting first.

I had Word 1.0 on a Mac, but they charged and arm+2legs for printing. The dot matrix printouts were free, but I didn't want to submit my paper using dot matrix printout.

Of course, I neglected to download my papers before I graduated. 3669160923

I don't remember the exact paper titles (this was 30+ years ago). I didn't want to take the standard freshman history classes, so I got approval to waive the pre-requisites and take senior-level history classes, which are far more narrow/detailed in scope. I ended up taking 3 or 4, which in all covered European History from post WWI up to the beginning of the Korean War. The reading list was shocking (~3000 pages, each semester) -- even the History majors felt it was a lot (but all agreed, the reading list was very good). The paper topics included an "interview" with Hitler shortly after becoming Chancellor in 1933, Chamberlain's diplomacy for the Munich Agreement of 1938... stuff like that which nobody cares about anymore.

The prof tried to get me to add on history as a major, and even offered me a job working for the History Department. I took him up on the latter offer, but not the former. lol

I have to admit, collecting stamps probably contributed significantly to my interest in world history. I do a lot of non-fiction reading, but the readings in those classes were just too much to handle (I was S/E major, not liberal arts). I prefer leisure history reading, and academic history reading only if I'm not being tested on it!

So how does "history papers" relate to computer tech -- they forced me to really learn to use those 80-column line/screen editors!

Last Edit: Jan 23, 2019 22:53:44 GMT -5 by khj

Misc. Technical Ramblings and Nostalgia - share yours here

Post by zepherusbane on Jan 23, 2019 14:12:03 GMT -5

Post by khj on Jan 23, 2019 14:21:14 GMT -5

Post by zepherusbane on Jan 23, 2019 14:39:35 GMT -5

Post by stampie78 on Jan 23, 2019 14:58:50 GMT -5

Post by khj on Jan 23, 2019 15:02:27 GMT -5

Post by toyempire on Jan 23, 2019 15:05:43 GMT -5

Post by khj on Jan 23, 2019 15:10:52 GMT -5

Post by zepherusbane on Jan 23, 2019 15:15:24 GMT -5

Post by khj on Jan 23, 2019 15:25:56 GMT -5

Post by zepherusbane on Jan 23, 2019 15:35:39 GMT -5

Post by zepherusbane on Jan 23, 2019 15:37:49 GMT -5

Post by angore on Jan 23, 2019 17:31:13 GMT -5

Post by tomd on Jan 23, 2019 18:04:39 GMT -5

Post by khj on Jan 23, 2019 18:34:21 GMT -5

Post by mourningdoves on Jan 23, 2019 21:17:46 GMT -5

Post by zepherusbane on Jan 23, 2019 21:27:33 GMT -5

Post by khj on Jan 23, 2019 21:47:52 GMT -5

Post by mourningdoves on Jan 23, 2019 22:17:28 GMT -5

Post by mourningdoves on Jan 23, 2019 22:21:28 GMT -5

Post by khj on Jan 23, 2019 22:51:31 GMT -5

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